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Dynamometer results analysis thread

This is a discussion on Dynamometer results analysis thread within the Innovation Center forums, part of the TheBoard category; Dyno Chart Comparison Thread Rules of Engagement 1.) Readings will be taken beginning at 3000 RPM (where most Dyno chart ...

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Old 06-23-2010   #1
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Post Dynamometer results analysis thread

Dyno Chart Comparison Thread


Rules of Engagement

1.) Readings will be taken beginning at 3000 RPM (where most Dyno chart lines begin to make sense, and thereafter every 500 RPM’s, i.e., 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, and so on.
2.) The reading from the TORQUE curve at each curve point from 3000 RPM to 5252 RPM will be taken, then switched to the HORSEPOWER curve readings thereafter up to 95% of the OEM Redline / Rev Limit.
3.) Readings/Points will end at the 95% RPM value of the OEM recommended Redline / Rev Limiter RPM. Poster must provide researchable proof of that number.
4.) The 5252 crossover point reading will be taken as well.
5.) Add up all of the point readings, then divide by the total number of readings taken, this is the Average Reading across the entire range, and your final score.
6.) Always include, if possible (or we can find it on-line) a copy of the original, Stock OEM Dyno chart for comparison. Otherwise.. how do we know if it’s an “improvement”. Chart must be same year, same model, etc. as performance curves do change from year to year, and we need a baseline. If possible, superimpose the Stock curves onto the same chart, or we can do it here as well. Do the same “average” calculation for the stock graph for comparison.
7.) In addition, we will be examining and comparing the “Powerband” usable width impact, and the cause/effect of any mod’s / changes. Locate the peak Torque RPM, then Locate the peak (again at 95% of Rev Limit, no cheating!) Horsepower RPM. Subtract the torque peak RPM from the HP peak RPM. This calculated RPM fiqure denotes how wide of a “Powerband” range (in RPM’s) you have achieved. Divide this number by the Rev Limit Number for % of “Powerband” across the rev range.
For example, if the calculated (HP Peak RPM minus the Torque Peak RPM) figure is say 3000 RPM, and the rev limit is set at 8000 RPM, divide 3000 by 8000 X .95, or 7600 RPM, and the result is that your “Powerband” is available over 39.4% of your total, practical rev range. THAT would be an excellent, beautiful fiqure. Obviously, higher is better for the street, and it is a great indicator of how much (or how little!) you have improved the performance of the bike for street riding. Give yourself a “Plus”, or a “Minus” for this.
  • Dyno Graph Readings below 3000 are not taken, as many dyno graphs do not register well, or very clearly at this low RPM.
  • Readings above 95% of the OEM Stated RPM Redline are not allowed, to discourage over-revving, and discourage “Dyno Queens”. No, the OEM rev limit is not part of some secret evil conspiracy to prevent fun. Rev limiters and Redlines are provided to protect the engine components from damage, prevent ring flutter, valve bounce, and maintain safe piston speeds. This is NOT a thread to debate the OEM decisions. If you disagree, buy another, different bike, or… go to a different website! If we all follow the same rules, the bar is totally even. And yes, there are definitely folks who would cheat and rev the crap out of engines just to eek a few more unusable HP to “win”. Cheaters will be eliminated / deleted / edited out. If you sincerely feel that you need to argue this, you’re missing all the points, and would never have fun here.
  • The objective is solely to promote performance modifications that provide actual added power and efficiency between the RPM’s we normally use in everyday riding. A secondary objective is to help folks fully understand what performance improvement actually means, and how to properly utilize the information provided on Dynamometer charts.
  • The objective is NOT “peak” horsepower numbers, as that is never the point. We are talking about REAL performance here, which is the broadest, flattest, most usable performance Powerband improvements.
  • Posters MUST provide clear information around HOW they achieved such a flat, usable,wide, high performance Powerband. There are no secrets here.
  • Oddball, “never heard of ‘em weird dyno charts will not be accepted.
  • Charts MUST show clearly the Horsepower and Torque Graphs, as well as the A/F ratio graph. If you do not have all three, you’ve definitely been ripped off by your Dyno Operator / Dyno Shop.
  • Only the calculated Average Number achieved across the 3000 RPM to 95% of Redline as described above will be used for comparisons and conversations, along with the "powerband" range % number.
  • Bikes must be Dyno’d in “Street” trim, i.e., w / Air filters, mufflers, etc. installed
  • No Dyno Queens, or Dyno Racers allowed. We know who you are!

Two scores:

A.) Average Power achieved across the Rev Range.
B.) Powerband - %age of total rev range.

In both of these cases, higher is always better.

These two numbers illustrate most clearly the attributes of a great (or not?) street ride, and provide an excellent picture of how much the bike has been improved (or not!) from the Stock OEM offer.

You can obviously also perform this same analysis on any bike, and any “Dyno” Chart. These two observations can help to paint a very clear picture of a bikes street capabilities, and ease/pleasure of riding factor. Try it on superbikes, hogs, cruisers, sportbikes. Great for comparisons, and getting a preview of what to expect.


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Last edited by The Prophet; 06-23-2010 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010   #2
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Lightbulb Re: Dynamometer results analysis thread

Here's a very good site with some excellent tech articles on various levels of Dynamometer use.

Dyno Tech Talk about Dynamometers & Testing

Scroll down two or three articles to the notes on "Average" horsepower to immediately place yourself above the novice, or newbie category! (Just kidding). Seriously though, the practice of obtaining "average" results across the RPM band is what the seasoned Pro's do, as they have an obviously better handle on what performance really is, and a requirement to actually use it on the track.

Great read(s), and you might strongly consider trying out a few of these things if you like.

Ride Safe!

Bob
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Old 11-16-2010   #3
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Re: Dynamometer results analysis thread

UNDER THE CURVE!!!

Much as I dislike "buzzwords", this phrase is an excellent one to know. Read on, and know what the "area under the curve" is all about. Savvy and experienced tuners know, and the vast multitude of "Internet Expert" advice slingers have obviously never heard of it.

Granted, this is a much more complicated way of determining the level of performance expectations from a paper dyno graph, when compared to my previous points about "averaging" the peak Torque figures at every 500 RPM <5252 RPM, then the peak HP Figures at 500 RPM intervals > 5252 RPM. Both will provide the same end result, but this one is more scientific and mathematical.

When you hear someone loudly spouting off about his "Peak" horsepower fiqures all the time, you can be 100% assured he's a novice at best.

A good read...


Tech: Area Under The Curve
After having ridden these bikes for a few days it's no secret to any of us that the GSX-R1000 is the class leader in power. After one ride, anyone's seat-of-the-pants power gauge can tell you that, and we confirmed this on our DynoJet model 250 Dyno. But what, exactly, is the proper way to know which bike is truly the most powerful? Peak horsepower? No. Peak torque? No. In both cases, a narrow-band spike of power can sway the numbers. What you want to look at is the area under the curve (one can use a plotter, MS Excel, or the thinking man's way is via a simple integral, although it can be profusely argued that the real thinking man's way is to have graduate students do it). Look at those nice lines drawn across the dyno charts, it's the total area under that curve that is meaningful -- basically, it's the total volume of power produced.
When you look at a dyno chart, horsepower and torque always cross at 5,250*, because horsepower is just a calculation of torque at a given rpm divided by the constant 5,250 (5252.1 if you use generally accepted 3.14159265 for pi). So it's accurate to say that high-revving, high-horsepower bikes just make decent amounts of torque at a high rpm.

Torque, in a nutshell, can be thought of as big lever -- the longer the bar, the more leverage. Here, the GSX-R clearly reigns supreme, besting the R1 by 12.7 percent, the Honda by 13.9 percent and the Kawasaki by 13.9 percent. That's it, that is the outright difference in power measurements for these engines. But this is somewhat misleading in the real world, and here's why: Transmissions are just torque reducers. The "taller" a bike is geared, the more the torque applied to the ground is being reduced -- you've got a shorter lever (more so with each upshift).
For instance, to go a mile a minute, a 1,500 rpm Cummings diesel truck needs significantly "taller" gearing than a Kawasaki Ninja 250 screaming along at 12,000 rpm. Think of the truck's transmission as a shorter lever and you've got the right idea: the amount of torque being applied to the ground at any given instant that's going to determine how rapidly you can accelerate. It's all down to those torque-reducing transmission again (technically for you sticklers, multiplying less, except in Harley-Davidson Sporter Transmissions' fifth gear, which is 1:1 and is why they make more power in fifth -- 1:1 gear ratio means less frictional gear loss -- this is why we insisted our 90 bhp spec racebikes were always dyno'd in fourth gear, but we digress). Every time you upshift, you're reducing the effective torque that can be put on the ground. Torque is either multiplied or divided. If you have a 10:1 final drive gear ratio, torque is multiplied by a factor of 10. If the engine produces seven ft-lbs of torque at the crankshaft, the transmission will output 70 ft-lbs to the rear wheel. If you have a lower-revving engine that only turns half as fast, it'll need a 5:1 ratio to go the same speed, so it will only output 35 ft-lbs to the rear wheel.
'Son, I say son, let me tell you how it's done...'

So why is torque so important? Want move big heavy things really slowly up long hills? Get an engine with a ton of torque and give it a long lever -- a really short transmission like the 13-speed ones in big diesel trucks. It's not going to go fast, but it has the outright power to move the weight. Ultimately, the power a little Ninja 250 can put out is very limited so even with the shortest of reasonable gearing you just can't lift tons of load -- at least not with any expectation of getting over the top in this lifetime, let alone with angry SUV drivers behind you!
So why is horsepower so important? Because motorcycles are relatively light, and since we want to move them quickly over a period of time we need a way to measure torque with relation to time. This is where horsepower comes in -- it's a mathematical representation of torque and time divided by a constant. So a motorcycle should, theoretically, make the same amount of horsepower in any gear. Since we want to get places quickly on our bikes, measuring the area under the horsepower curve is a good indicator of that. Here, the GSX-R still shines, besting the R1 by 12.6 percent, the ZX-10R by 11.6% and the Honda by a whopping 18.7 percent.
Comparing area under the curves of the torque vs. horsepower graphs is very enlightening and much insight can be gained about the bike's real-world characteristics. Look at the Honda, in area under the torque curve, it's only 13.9 percent behind the class-leading Suzuki. But it lags by 18.7 percent in the horsepower arena -- this means the Honda makes more of it's power down low. Conversely, the Kawasaki trails the Suzuki in torque area by 13.9 percent but gains more than two percent horsepower (11.6 percent down) versus torque as compared to the Honda, which loses 4.8% -- and you can tell that the Kawasaki makes more power at higher rpm and will have more of a top-end "rush", while the Honda would be classified as "more tractable." It's no surprise that the Honda was the least-frightening engine on the track, this and its stable front end gave it the outright track victory. The real speed freaks like Sean will want the Suzuki but will also get a kick out of the Kawasaki's lunge. For the newbie, a flatter torque curve will have an easier learning curve.
Copious amounts of power do you little good when you've got ham for a fist.

Let's look at this a little more, and consider more generalizations of low-horsepower versus high-horsepower bikes of the same displacement. Torque shreds things. Remember that horsepower is a function of rpm, so in order to make more bhp with the lightest possible parts, you want to rev the engine higher. Indeed, to rev the engine higher, you need lighter parts. One compliments the other. You can see why spinning things higher and higher is so important: 75 ft-lbs of torque at 5,250 is 75 horsepower, but 75 ft-lbs of torque at 10,500 rpm is 150 bhp. A lot can be gained by simply shifting the torque peak higher. Put another way, think of horsepower as that long torque lever spinning. Think of a higher-horsepower engine as that long lever spinning much faster and -- given the same length of that lever -- you're going to make more horsepower in the later, faster-spinning scenario. In many cases, it is more advantageous to spin that lever faster than it is to make it longer -- because it's got to be stronger to be longer, you have to make everything else stronger to support it, thus things tend to get heavier.
Another example: Start out with a lower-revving bike and you need taller gearing to go the same speed, thus your basic design has you starting out with less available torque on the ground. Take any motorcycle, put it in first gear and measure the acceleration vs. the acceleration it produces in sixth gear and first gear wins out every time. Think of it like this: drag race two of the same bikes from 0-60 mph, one bike using first through fourth gears, the other using third through sixth gears. The former -- the higher-revving bike in our analogy -- is going to win every time because it's putting more real power to the ground by not reducing it so much via the transmission. In closing, if you really want to know which bike is fastest -- outside factors such as weight, wind drag and friction being equal -- we want to look at the area under the curve of the all-gear dyno runs, using the X-axis to mph instead of rpm. This will tell you the theoretical winner of any zero-to-whatever-mph race you want to run. Look for MO to be doing the math in future features. --Martin


ALL TORQUE

ALL POWER

Respectfully copied from Motorcyle.Com

Thanks,

Ride Safe (and in the curve!)!

Bob

Last edited by The Prophet; 11-17-2010 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 11-17-2010   #4
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Re: Dynamometer results analysis thread

Yet another great perspective on "area under the curve" tuning.

Average Performance

Poke more around this site for additional Dyno "Tuning" (Vs just recording 'Peak' HP for bragging rights on newbie sites) information and ideas.

A good read.

Ride Safe!

Bob
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Old 03-02-2012   #5
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Re: Dynamometer results analysis thread

this sounds really good in this site and makes sens to think.
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