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Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

This is a discussion on Carbs; Jetting; Etc. within the Innovation Center forums, part of the TheBoard category; In my experience, by far the most misunderstood of the Motorcycle area - Carbs and jetting on a CV (Constant ...

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Old 07-23-2010   #1
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Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

In my experience, by far the most misunderstood of the Motorcycle area - Carbs and jetting on a CV (Constant Vacuum) style Carburetor.

Easy, simple, and basic, yet there are thousands of 'experts' out there... that all disagree, and continually feed the mythical, mysterious and voodoo crowd!

Attached is perhaps the most colorfully illustrated and easy to follow explanation of "how stuff works", with some good basic comments about jetting.

http://www.crazyhorsemotorcycles.com...arb_School.ppt

IMHO, most "experts" get the needle jet and the main jet totally confused, and speak of both as one. They are not. This creates the incorrect assumption that bigger and bigger "Main Jets" are proof of something, as in "More Power".

Actually, if your intake system - which includes everything involved with the Air / Fuel charge all the way until they are hopefully extremely well mixed and meet the Spark Plug - is designed and modified expertly, you should require a SMALLER Main Jet, as you have achieved much improved atomisation, thus a more complete burn, hence improved Volumetric Efficiency.

Needing to continually install larger and larger Main Jets is symptomatic of the Intake System being now so far out of whack and balance from stock that you now require much more fuel to achieve the same speed and performance as before. Also of interest is another fact that if one needs to continually advance the ignition timing, something is going wrong. Again, if you have designed and modified the intake system correctly, the improved A/F charge should burn quicker, meaning and requiring LESS advance... not more.

Another very strange thought is that LESS MPG fuel efficiency is somehow proof of better "Power". Again, if the VE has been improved, you should achieve additional Torque AS WELL AS improved, better than stock, fuel economy.

Adding to this mess of opinions and theories is the odd fact that - at least in my experience - I've yet to see anyone spend time on a Dynamometer tuning a bike by throttle position. If there is anyone who has done this to a CV carbed bike out there in cyberland, please speak up!

What we almost always see is a wide-open-throttle dyno run, that only illustrates what can be expected when we run that particular bike at WOT. Think about it
.
It would be better to pull singular dyno runs at say 1/4 throttle position, tune as required, then continue to 1/2 throttle position, tune as required, then 3/4 and so on. This would dispel a zillion myths, and the performance from that incrementally tuned bike - at ALL throttle positions - would be wonderful.

Think about it.

Anyways, read up if you care to, and please continue to research onward and upward, and well beyond this short course. There is much to learn about these very simple devices, but unfortunately there has been so much "interesting" theory and conjecture thrown around by self proclaimed "expert" type individuals, it's become increasingly more difficult to get a firm grip on the basics.

One thing not specifically mentioned in the attachment is:

Set your floats as the first step. If you truly want to start on an even keel, and have a solid baseline to work from - set the floats exactly to spec.

Floats set too high will always result in slightly rich running, and floats set too low will always result in slightly lean running. This also helps to explain in part why otherwise matching bikes run well with different jets - the baseline is off. Remember that you are relying on a person at the OEM factory, the jossling the carb went through in shipping, the jossling done at the assembly line to install the carb, and so on. It only takes an hour or so, and well worth the effort afterwards.

Hope you get something positive out of all this! Please comment...

Ride Safe!

Bob
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Last edited by The Prophet; 07-23-2010 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 07-23-2010   #2
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Re: Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

Good stuff Bob. Getting ready to start some carb work myself. Going to put the SV on the track. Bought a used pipe the other day to replace the stock boat anchor. I will put it on in the next week or so and see where I'm at on fueling. Going to keep the stock air box and filter (as the stock Zooki air filters are very good IMO). Hopefully won't be to far off, I'll probably be picking your brain for some advice.

I will keep everybody updated on my progress, which will be intentionally slow as I'm trying to do this on a budget.
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Old 07-25-2010   #3
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Re: Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

IMHO, when it comes to CV style carbs - which are wonderful by the way - the absolute best way to learn about, and fully understand the various functions is:

On a pleasant, carefree Sunday morning, Make a pot of good coffee.

With carburetor(s) inhand, sit at the kitchen table (workbench if you are married!). Spread out some newspaper, and take the carb fully apart, piece by piece, and lay the individual pieces out neatly in order. Take your time, sip coffee, be happy...

Now pick up each piece individually, and study it, feel it, understand it's function - both individually, and how it may interact with other pieces.

Blow into the various holes in the venturi chamber (use a small piece of tubing to get at the difficult to reach openings), and understand the path they take, and what triggers them, and what does not.

Blow into the various tubes from under the float chamber, and fully comprehend their path and total function.

See how the slide works, and how it is raised up and down. What makes it rise and fall? What does not?

Plan to take at least about two hours studying the carb, assembling it, disassembling it, and if you get stuck on something, take a break, and go for a short walk outside.

This will arguably be the best two hours you can spend, as when finished you SHOULD obtain a full understanding of "how it works". From that moment forward, you can look away from any future posts about "jetting" as you will have heeps more knowledge than 99% of the "experts" out in cyberville.

It's really a very simple, beautiful device, that is only scorned and abused by those who unfortunately never took the time to fully understand the overall true function. Note how these types often begin retorts with "All I know is...", and/or "It's a well known fact that..." (it is?). Funny.

Most importantly, comprehend the "Constant Vacuum" (also refered to as "Constant Velocity", Constant Depression") function, and what it does, how it does it, when it does it, etc. This is vital to the full understanding.

How does the Slide rise and fall?
What makes the slide rise and fall, and what does not?
When the slide rises / falls... what else happens? Why?
Once you comprehend the various functions, make sense of how, where, when, and why the various fuel feed and mix functions come into play.
What is the hand throttle connected to, and what is it's function?
Understand the physics of "Flow through a fixed orifice".
How high does the slide need to rise in order for the Main Jet to add it's function to the carb's operation? Why? What is the physics behind this?
What happens when you ride up a steep hill? Why?
What is the "Venturi" effect?
Dellorto Motorcycle Carburetor Tuning Guide
What is the "Bernoulli" effect?
What Is the Bernoulli Effect?
How do these two "effects" help make the carburetor function? Why?
What happens when you place a heavy load on the motor?
What happens if you forget to downshift the transmission, and the bike struggles to go?
What happens when you are steady cruising? Why?
What is that hole on the bottom of the slide for? What happens if I make it bigger? Smaller? Why?
What is the function of this spring inside the diaphragm chamber? What if it were stronger? Weaker? Why?
What happens to the functionality, pressurization and balance of all this if I remove the Airbox, and replace with tubular filters? Why?
What is needed to start a motor on a cold morning? Why?
What is happening at the various Throttle (1/4, 1/2, 3.4, WOT) openings? Why?

I list these various topics because you'll find endless - and at times mindless - internet debates about these individual subjects. Once you've spent some serious time at the ol' kitchen table studing, and "touchy / feeling" the carb and parts, you'll soon see how these functions are covered in the carb's design, and actually what a great little device it really is.

Anyway, this is how I learned, and how I tried to teach my two sons, and it seemed to work OK. There are likely better ways to learn, but at least it's a start.

Now, the trick is to provide clean, ultra filtered, and non-turbulent air to the carbs inlet.

Beware of the many Filter offerings out there - read the thread about Air Filters. Newbies often fall prey to the aftermarket filters that claim huge "Horsepower" gains. Almost always at the expense of good filtering.

If yours is a pure racebike, and you intend to "tear it down" every 500 hours or so - -a "Race" filter might be considered. If yours is to be ridden on the street, go for filtering ability over "air flow" every time.

If the brand or type of "Air Filter" is a huge differential to the performance of your bike... then suffice to say that yours is NOT really a "Performance" bike. Use what is practical, and focus on more important things.

In the end, I'm certainly no "expert", as I try to learn, and experiment with new and different things every day. There are ton's of guys out there with more knowledge than me, I hope! (It would be a sad world otherwise!)

Anyway, try this study method if you like, and see if it helps. Let us know what ya' think!

Edited an hour later:

One last little tid-bit: Be VERY careful and selective around installing and using A/F gauges / indicators. Do a ton of research, and think a lot about...

Location of sensor bung - you want this to be as close to the exhaust valve exit as possible, yet be aware of temperature cautions. The closer you are to the exhaust exit, the more accurate the reading will be. These units measure the amount of 02 in the burnt charge. "Sniffers", as used on most Dyno's and at the EPA Test Facilities, are measuring other things, like Hydrogen, and CO2. Be aware of the "reversion" phenomina of exhausts (back and forth motion of the exhaust air) and how this activity will dilute the charge read if the sensor is located too near the silencer outlet, too far from the exhaust valve outlet, or in the "crossover" pipe. If you have an EFI bike, note where the manufacturer placed the sensors along the pipe. Much study, and trial and error, went into this final location selection.

Target A/F Ratio - 13.2 sounds impressive (More Power! I'm RICH!), but is it the ratio you want across the board? Why? Think about it for a while. What ratio would you want while cruising along at say 65 MPH on the highway? Why? When you learn about carbs as in the post above, think about what a WOT Dyno run displays and illustrates. Is this display realistic for everyday riding? Why not?

Digital or Analog - digitals tend to display rolling numbers, ever changing, which is annoying. An old skool analog dial can be buffered, and may be easier to read. Check 'em out.

Lastly, think about whether or not a given/chosen A/F ratio - for example the 13.2 ratio, is actually the best for the highest power, highest efficiency, highest burn rate for your bike? How do you know by looking at an A/F Gauge read-out? What is it actually telling you? What is it NOT telling you?

Yes, I agree that these gauges are useful, and fun to watch and mess with. On the other hand, there are a lot of questions as to overall accuracy, and cause/effect impact. there are also a lot of debates around best location, and best A/F ratio targeting.

A better overall indicator would be comparisons of before/after lap times, 1/4 mile E.T.s, top speed achieved, etc. Otherwise, what's the point? Also realise that CV style carbs are tuned by throttle position, not RPM, and not by running the bike at WOT. That said, ask again what the function of an A/F guage might be for a CV carbed bike.

Too many questions... eh?


Riide Safe!

Bob

Last edited by The Prophet; 10-06-2010 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 07-28-2010   #4
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Re: Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

Here is a painfully boring, and somewhat complex formula for calculating fluid flow through a pipe.

The Flow through Pipes - Pipes - Fluid Mechanics - Engineering Reference with Worked Examples

Huh? What the...

Think about your CV Carb, and the needle. The needle is sitting inside of a tube (needle Jet). Therefore, if you really wanted to you could measure everything, then calculate the gasoline flow through the area of the tube, minus the diameter of the needle. This is proven, simple Mathematics.

Now, think about how far the needle needs to rise in the "tube", in order for the tapered end to begin to expose itself, and change the dimesions, thus the mathematical calculation. Roughly 2/3?

Remeber the "C" in CV means Constant.

How would this relate to throttle position? Would the throttle need to be significantly open to expose the tapered end of the needle?

Now think about the Main Jet, situated at the bottom of the Needle Jet (the tube). Based on what has been proven thus far mathematically, when do you think the "Main Jet" orifice size comes into play? Or doesn't?

Remember that the Needle and Needle Jet (Tube) present a fixed, measurable area until the needle taper rises above the Tube end, and what "Throttle" position is required to do so.

"Throttle" controls the Butterfly, not the slide, so it allows the "possibility" of more or less airflow as it is opened closed, dependent on other conditions as well, like going uphill, being in the wrong gear, etc.

Whew!

Now, all that said, take some time to "ponder" all this, and think about how 'main jet' size effects (or... not?) the different throttle positions, and what effect it may (or may not?) have throughout the rev range.

Ride Safe!

Bob
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Old 10-30-2010   #5
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Lightbulb Re: Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

An excellent write up on CV style carbs.

Please take special not of the difference between the Main System.. and the Main Jet.

There are ton's of "experts" out there that don't know the difference, and think the Main Jet does loads more than it really does. The seed of many an expensive "Flatslide" carb purchase.

Once you know how these great CV stytle carbs work, you are on to a lifetime of trouble free riding.

How a carburetor works: Carbs explained - Ninja250Wiki

A simple note on Main Jets:

Know what your baseline top achievable speed is under given conditions and circumstances. Hopefully at a track, secondly on a deserted country road.

If changing to a larger Main Jet - if your "Top Speed" doesn't increase... there is no need for the bigger jet. period. Look elsewhere for an effective upgrade.

Lastly, the "goal" of a given, say 13.2 Air/fuel ratio, should definitely be questioned. Different motors react differently to a/f mixes, and also react differently at ever changing road conditions and situations. Idle, cruising, accelerating uphill, and so on all require differing scenario's with respect to A/F. Maximum performance, torque, and usable powerband curve should be the goal, not max HP, or a target A/F ratio.

Ride Safe!

Bob
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Old 12-11-2010   #6
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Lightbulb Re: Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

CAUTION:

For consideration and perusal only!!!


Here's an interesting thought on enlarging the bore of a carburetor. Worth a read. It would be nice to hear some testimonials from a few folks who have actually tried this.

Thunder Products - Performance carburetor and clutching for snowmobiles, motorcycles and ATVs.

Concept, and approach makes 100% sense... but "concepts" don't always instantly translate to "good".

Anyone tried this? Comments? Insights?

On the site, move over to the menu on the right, and click on "UFO". This looks conceptually interesting as well.

I always wish these authors would go to the next level, and supply some before/after track lap times, 1/4 mile e.t.'s, 40MPH to 80MPH 'roll on' times, fuel economy changes, etc. That said, we all like conceptual, thought provoking stuff don't we?

What do YOU think?

Ride Safe!

Bob
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Old 03-02-2012   #7
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Re: Carbs; Jetting; Etc.

thats an nice stuff it would help me a lot thanks for the post.
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